reading a great book, jeus interupted, that i reccomend, but i came accross an interesting issue about second thessalonians.
ehrman argues that he does not think 2 thessalonians was written by the same person who wrote 1 thessalonians, and gives his reasons:.
if paul meant what he said in 1 thessalonians, that jesus return would be sudden and unexpected, it is hard to believe that he could have written what is said in 2 thessaloniansthat the end is not coming right away and that there will be clear-cut signs to indicate that the end is near, signs that had not yet appeared.
Mat
Well, obviously he didn't know! But from the scripture we are discussing it is clear that Paul believed that he would be among the living on the day of the Lord. It is also clear that he made his contemporary generation believe the Lords day would be in their lifetime. So much for God's inspiration eh?
Paul and his "contemporary generation" and others, down through years believed that the Day of the Lord COULD (not would) come during their lifetimes.
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this is a question that i have struggled with, not just as a jehovahs witness but as a believer in god.
In the only Book that counts it says:
Isa 45:5
I am Jehovah, and there is none else, no God besides Me; I clothed you, though you have not known Me; 6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to the sunset, that there is none besides Me. I am Jehovah, and there is none else; 7forming the light and creating darkness; making peace and creating evil. I Jehovah do all these things.
reading a great book, jeus interupted, that i reccomend, but i came accross an interesting issue about second thessalonians.
ehrman argues that he does not think 2 thessalonians was written by the same person who wrote 1 thessalonians, and gives his reasons:.
if paul meant what he said in 1 thessalonians, that jesus return would be sudden and unexpected, it is hard to believe that he could have written what is said in 2 thessaloniansthat the end is not coming right away and that there will be clear-cut signs to indicate that the end is near, signs that had not yet appeared.
Mat
Deputy Dog, you still haven't explained your interperatation. Why would I include him among the dead? At the risk of repeating myself let me point out- he said "we the living..."
There is nothing to explain.
He was alive when he wrote it. He didn't know the day or the hour of Christ's return. He did not know who would be alive or dead including himself.
reading a great book, jeus interupted, that i reccomend, but i came accross an interesting issue about second thessalonians.
ehrman argues that he does not think 2 thessalonians was written by the same person who wrote 1 thessalonians, and gives his reasons:.
if paul meant what he said in 1 thessalonians, that jesus return would be sudden and unexpected, it is hard to believe that he could have written what is said in 2 thessaloniansthat the end is not coming right away and that there will be clear-cut signs to indicate that the end is near, signs that had not yet appeared.
Mat
Ok Paul supporters, how do you interperate what Paul said in the verse?...
In every case he says "we". He included himself in this description, he got the congregation excited that the Lord's day was soon- just like the Watchtower did last century, and especially in 1975. It's quite clear what he was saying! Interperatation? Piffle! It's less vague that the Watchtower was about 1975!
Wow!!! You get all of that because Paul included himself among the living? You've got to give him an out here somewhere.
Would you have him include himself among the dead (even though he was alive at the time) to make this MORE believible?
These passages speaks about the "blessed hope" of all believers, at any time in church history. They are meant to encourage every generation to believe they could be the ones to see Christ's return, no matter what evil or suffering they're facing.
renee
Also, we are usually believe in covenant and post millineal theology where the apocalyptic denominations believe in dispensationalism - That means that where people like JWs believe in a 1st and 2nd fulfillment of the prophesies, we believe it was prophesied and fulfilled .. period. No 2nd fulfillment. We believe we are in the millineum now and just waiting for the end/2nd coming. There isn't as much debating about the mark of the beast and so forth. (And I'm totally not an expert on this subject - If I have a detail messed up, don't slaughter me!)
There are quite a few (myself included) reformed, who hold to what is called Historic Premillenialism. I believe Dr James Boise (from Philly 10th Presbyterian Church) was in that camp as well.
new derren brown documentary this evening on channel 4 (uk) 9-10:30pm.
his insights into human psychology is astonishing, some of his previous docs have been jaw-dropping.. "the entertainer investigates the reality behind america's faith-healing phenomenon, and chooses an unsuspecting member of the british public who is prepared to adopt the guise of a pastor.
the selected person then tries to perform healing `miracles' in texas after six months of learning, in an experiment to see whether he will be accepted".
leavingwt
I wonder if he has actually manipulated anyone who says they still believe, inspite of his trick?
cofty
I'm not an Arminian, but, I think some, if not, most Arminians would deny God makes choices based on the choice of the believer.
cofty
So is choosing someone based on what choices they make, as if God were constrained by thier future choices.
My point is God knows the future because he decreed it, not simply because he can see into it.
Edited to add
I missed page three before I posted, sorry.
I don't know why it wasn't showing until just after I posted
i was experiencing mild abdominal pain in the evenings and just on a whim, tried eliminating diet soda and other drinks sweetened with aspartame.. i don't drink a lot of soda, but when i do, i tried mexican coca-cola sweetened with old fashioned cane sugar instead.
--no more pain.
but now i'm climbing the wall with cravings.
It makes my eyes twitch.
new derren brown documentary this evening on channel 4 (uk) 9-10:30pm.
his insights into human psychology is astonishing, some of his previous docs have been jaw-dropping.. "the entertainer investigates the reality behind america's faith-healing phenomenon, and chooses an unsuspecting member of the british public who is prepared to adopt the guise of a pastor.
the selected person then tries to perform healing `miracles' in texas after six months of learning, in an experiment to see whether he will be accepted".
cofty
"I think what's wrong with that is that there is not the remotest possibility that anybody would arrive at the conclusion that bible is the word of god without external pressure to conform to that unsupportable view. It is not an evidence led conclusion; its an example of the intellectual sacrifice that is required for the benefits of group membership."
LOL!!! What benefits? It's a small and shrinking group.
You are right, flesh and blood didn't manipulate me or lead me to that conclusion. I'm not an evidentialist.
I would say there is much more external pressure to conform to the oposite view. In fact we see more and more churches going that way.
